<div dir="ltr">David,<div> I agree about that all robot contests eventually devolve into races. Especially after multiple people have solved the problems of the contest. It is possible to give points for subjective attributes of the robot, but that can be a slippery slope. The winner of Table Top this year, was an example of a robot that was extremely cool. I competed in that contest and even if my robot (Little Andy) had beat his time, my robot was nowhere as cool as his. Luckily, that wasn't an issue since my robot screwed up. </div><div><br></div><div> However, I don't think that the eventual devolution of robot contest into races is the point. I think that the solving of the problems of the contest is the fun and interesting part. Also, after you have several people who have solved the problem, especially if they used different approaches initially, it is fun to see which approach wins the day or how far you can take your robot. I do think there should be a lifetime to a specific contest. Sometimes you can extend a contest by adding new challenges. I believe DPRG's table top contest and RoboColumbus are examples of this. The trick is to know when to give the contest a rest. When you give a contest a rest, you shut the door for new people who might be interested is solving that contest's challenges. I would still like another shot at making a cool Table Top robot.</div><div><br></div><div> There has to be an entry point for new roboticists to gain skills and also a challenge point where people can continue to develop. Maybe, an approach would be to set a "challenge" that is really hard, like the Challenge LF course, and leave the challenge standing until someone solves it. If both Carl and Ron manage to solve the Challenge LF course this May, I will enjoy both of their efforts, even if the winner is the fastest of the two.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Doug P.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:51 AM, David Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davida@smu.edu" target="_blank">davida@smu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
I did see Ron's robot demo, and interesting contrast between his
approach and Carl's, though Carl's is admittedly a simulation at
this point. <br>
<br>
Carl says that this year he is going to "get physical" so I was
about to post a link to Olivia Newton-John's "Let's Get Physical" as
a theme song. But then I went back and read the lyrics, and all the
thinly and not-so-thinly veiled innuendo from 1980's disco seem
oddly discordant in today's cultural environment ("I've been
patient, I've been good. Trying to keep my hands on the table"). <br>
<br>
So instead I offer the following, in keeping with the line-following
theme and the observation that all robot contests eventually devolve
into races. Even if the requirements are, say, that only
line-following WALKING robots are allowed:<br>
<br>
<a class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XiRxNkZleY" target="_blank"><https://www.youtube.com/<wbr>watch?v=4XiRxNkZleY></a><br>
<a class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XiRxNkZleY" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=4XiRxNkZleY</a><br>
<br>
cheers!<br>
dpa<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-cite-prefix">On 12/10/2017 11:32 AM, Doug Paradis
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">David,
<div> From watching actual robots run the stain elements,
I know that it very possible for the robot to follow the
outside edge of the stain and recover the line on the opposite
side (my robot did this for one). Following this path the
robot would be considered not following the line. Again after
watching multiple robots navigate the S curves, it is easy to
see if the robot is following the line (I.e., swaying with the
S curve) versus just cutting across the center line (i.e., not
following the line). I agree that bigger robots, those with
wheel bases larger than the maximum radius of curve used in
the course (i.e., 6 inches), might not be as responsive as the
smaller robots. However, I still believe that you can tell
when they are not following the line.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> BTW, did you see Ron's robot demo on Saturday? His
robot was doing pretty well. I think the course he was running
had a S curve which he handled without issue. The practice
course didn't have any stains, if I recall right.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Doug P,</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:49 AM, David
Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davida@smu.edu" target="_blank">davida@smu.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Thanks Doug,<br>
<br>
I'm not sure I follow your examples (pun intended!). <br>
<br>
For the segmented S curves, the difference between
following the arc and following straight line
approximations of that arc are pretty small, and likely to
be indistinguishable from Ron's robot's path, for
example. Similarly, each of the stains on the published
"challenge" course is on a straight line segment between
the entry point and exit point, so the paths would be
identical in both cases.<br>
<br>
For a robot with a base the size of the tiles, I'm not
sure there would be any difference at all, unless the
rules require that the "exact center" of the robot must
remain on the line, in which case I don't see how either
Carl's approach or Ron's would qualify.<br>
<br>
This is just an intellectual exercise, I'm not planning on
fielding such a 'bot.<br>
<br>
cheers!<br>
dpa
<div>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696moz-cite-prefix">On
12/10/2017 10:06 AM, Doug Paradis wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">David,
<div> Going from entry point to exit point is
not considered enough. You have to follow the
line. For example, the segmented S curves, the
robot needs to follow the curve and make an S
type movement. Another example is the stain
elements, the robot needs to follow the line
across the stain not follow the outside edge of
the stain. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Doug P.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at
1:11 AM, David Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davida@smu.edu" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:davida@smu.edu" target="_blank">davida@smu.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Great
meeting today. <br>
<br>
Doug, I have a question based on Ron and
Carl's presentations, perhaps it has already
been answered, to wit:<br>
<br>
As I understand, the line following course
consists of an assembly of square tiles,
each of which has an entry and exit point.<br>
<br>
Is it sufficient for the robot to just
identify the entry and exit points, and
drive directly from one to the other?<br>
<br>
That is, it would not follow the line per
se, though with sufficiently large robot the
differences would probably be pretty
negligible, but it would follow the course.<br>
<br>
thanks,<br>
dpa
<div>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671moz-cite-prefix">On
12/09/2017 08:18 AM, Doug Paradis
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696h5">
<div dir="ltr">John,
<div> Currently, the intersecting
lines are always straight and all
intersections are 90 degrees.
Curves lines at an intersection
would be a possible addition to
further challenge courses
(interesting idea). The link to
the course layout is at </div>
<div><a href="https://www.dprg.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DPRG-Roborama-2011b-Challenge-Level-LF-Course.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.dprg.org/wp-conten<wbr>t/uploads/2017/11/DPRG-Roboram<wbr>a-2011b-Challenge-Level-LF-Cou<wbr>rse.pdf </a>
If you have any additional
questions, let me know. I would
love to see your work on the tests
that you are developing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Doug P.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec
9, 2017 at 12:36 AM, John Swindle
<span dir="ltr"><<a class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank">swindle@compuserve.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif" size="2" color="black">Doug,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'd say the crossing in
your drawing was about
either 30 degrees or 150
degrees, and since it could
come in on either side, I'd
have to look for both. I am
not asking that the rules
state which side the angle
is measured from. My issue
is that I am developing a
two-step test that covers
all the conditions in the
Challenge, but in the steps
I need to include something
that rejects the
intersections. I am OK with
rejecting any line that is
70 degrees to 110 degrees on
either side. If the
intersecting line is
straight, the test is a bit
more robust. If each side is
70 to 110 degrees (a bent
intersecting line), my
two-step test might fail.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Doing it "that's just
wrong" way,</div>
<div>John Swindle</div>
<div>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671h5">
<div><br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: Doug Paradis
<<a class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paradug@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paradug@gmail.com" target="_blank">paradug@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: John Swindle <<a class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank">swindle@compuserve.com</a>><br>
Cc: DPRG <<a class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dprglist@lists.dprg.org" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dprglist@lists.dprg.org" target="_blank">dprglist@lists.dprg.org</a>><br>
Sent: Fri, Dec 8, 2017
11:52 pm<br>
Subject: Re: LF
intersection angle
rule<br>
<br>
<div id="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486AOLMsgPart_2_81c7d011-0908-4c74-95cc-d249b881afbf">
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486aolReplacedBody">
<div dir="ltr">John,
<div> In the
challenge
course, all
the
intersections
are 90
degrees. The
rule was
written to
allow crossing
variations in
the future.
I'm thinking
that 70-90
degrees would
represent the
smallest angle
of the
intersection.
I not sure
that is right,
just the way I
would
interpret the
angle. </div>
<div>if you saw
an
intersection
that was like
this:</div>
<div>
| /</div>
<div>
| /</div>
<div>
/</div>
<div> /
|</div>
<div> /
|</div>
<div> /
|</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What angle
would you say
the
intersection
was? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Doug P.</div>
</div>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486aolmail_gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486aolmail_gmail_quote">On
Fri, Dec 8,
2017 at 9:03
PM, John
Swindle <span dir="ltr"><<a class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_-4773720127629958769moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank">swindle@compuserve.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="m_-4773720127629958769m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial,
Helvetica,
sans-serif" size="2" color="black">
<div>
<div>Doug,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The Line
Following
Challenge
rules say
"Intersections
may cross with
angles of 70 -
90 degrees."
Doesn't that
really mean 70
to 110
degrees? Is
the
intersecting
line straight,
or can it bend
at the
intersection?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>John
Swindle</div>
<div> </div>
<div style="color:black;font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt"><br>
</div>
</div>
</font></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
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