<div dir="ltr">David,<div><br></div><div>you've shared those videos before - fun for speed even if the line is rather boring :)...</div><div><br></div><div>you mentioned no plans to field a robot - why not?</div><div><br></div><div>e.g. You could field the first line-following bipedal walking robot in the club, and give Ron and I a 'run' for the money...</div><div><br></div><div>Carl</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 11:51 AM, David Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davida@smu.edu" target="_blank">davida@smu.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    I did see Ron's robot demo, and interesting contrast between his
    approach and Carl's, though Carl's is admittedly a simulation at
    this point.   <br>
    <br>
    Carl says that this year he is going to "get physical" so I was
    about to post a link to Olivia Newton-John's "Let's Get Physical" as
    a theme song.  But then I went back and read the lyrics, and all the
    thinly and not-so-thinly  veiled innuendo from 1980's disco seem
    oddly discordant in today's cultural environment ("I've been
    patient, I've been good.  Trying to keep my hands on the table").  <br>
    <br>
    So instead I offer the following, in keeping with the line-following
    theme and the observation that all robot contests eventually devolve
    into races.   Even if the requirements are, say, that only
    line-following WALKING robots are allowed:<br>
    <br>
    <a class="m_8354197153887660578moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XiRxNkZleY" target="_blank"><https://www.youtube.com/<wbr>watch?v=4XiRxNkZleY></a><br>
    <a class="m_8354197153887660578moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XiRxNkZleY" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>v=4XiRxNkZleY</a><br>
    <br>
    cheers!<br>
    dpa<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="m_8354197153887660578moz-cite-prefix">On 12/10/2017 11:32 AM, Doug Paradis
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">David,
        <div>       From watching actual robots run the stain elements,
          I know that it very possible for the robot to follow the
          outside edge of the stain and recover the line on the opposite
          side (my robot did this for one). Following this path the
          robot would be considered not following the line. Again after
          watching multiple robots navigate the S curves, it is easy to
          see if the robot is following the line (I.e., swaying with the
          S curve) versus just cutting across the center line (i.e., not
          following the line). I agree that bigger robots, those with
          wheel bases larger than the maximum radius of curve used in
          the course (i.e., 6 inches), might not be as responsive as the
          smaller robots. However, I still believe that you can tell
          when they are not following the line.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>     BTW, did you see Ron's robot demo on Saturday? His
          robot was doing pretty well. I think the course he was running
          had a S curve which he handled without issue. The practice
          course didn't have any stains, if I recall right.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Regards,</div>
        <div>Doug P,</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 10:49 AM, David
          Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davida@smu.edu" target="_blank">davida@smu.edu</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Thanks Doug,<br>
              <br>
              I'm not sure I follow your examples (pun intended!). <br>
              <br>
              For the segmented S curves, the difference between
              following the arc and following straight line
              approximations of that arc are pretty small, and likely to
              be indistinguishable from Ron's robot's path, for
              example.   Similarly, each of the stains on the published
              "challenge" course is on a straight line segment between
              the entry point and exit point, so the paths would be
              identical in both cases.<br>
              <br>
              For a robot with a base the size of the tiles, I'm not
              sure there would be any difference at all, unless the
              rules require that the "exact center" of the robot must
              remain on the line, in which case I don't see how either
              Carl's approach or Ron's would qualify.<br>
              <br>
              This is just an intellectual exercise, I'm not planning on
              fielding such a 'bot.<br>
              <br>
              cheers!<br>
              dpa
              <div>
                <div class="m_8354197153887660578h5"><br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <div class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696moz-cite-prefix">On
                    12/10/2017 10:06 AM, Doug Paradis wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type="cite">
                    <div dir="ltr">David,
                      <div>      Going from entry point to exit point is
                        not considered enough. You have to follow the
                        line. For example, the segmented S curves, the
                        robot needs to follow the curve  and make an S
                        type movement. Another example is the stain
                        elements, the robot needs to follow the line
                        across the stain not follow the outside edge of
                        the stain. </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Regards,</div>
                      <div>Doug P.</div>
                    </div>
                    <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at
                        1:11 AM, David Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:davida@smu.edu" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_8354197153887660578moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:davida@smu.edu" target="_blank">davida@smu.edu</a>></span>
                        wrote:<br>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Great
                            meeting today.  <br>
                            <br>
                            Doug, I have a question based on Ron and
                            Carl's presentations, perhaps it has already
                            been answered, to wit:<br>
                            <br>
                            As I understand, the line following course
                            consists of an assembly of square tiles,
                            each of which has an entry and exit point.<br>
                            <br>
                            Is it sufficient for the robot to just
                            identify the entry and exit points, and
                            drive directly from one to the other?<br>
                            <br>
                            That is, it would not follow the line per
                            se, though with sufficiently large robot the
                            differences would probably be pretty
                            negligible, but it would follow the course.<br>
                              <br>
                            thanks,<br>
                            dpa
                            <div>
                              <div class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696h5"><br>
                                <br>
                                <br>
                                <div class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671moz-cite-prefix">On

                                  12/09/2017 08:18 AM, Doug Paradis
                                  wrote:<br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div>
                                <div class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696h5">
                                  <div dir="ltr">John,
                                    <div>    Currently, the intersecting
                                      lines are always straight and all
                                      intersections are 90 degrees.
                                      Curves lines at an intersection
                                      would be a possible addition to
                                      further challenge courses
                                      (interesting idea). The link to
                                      the course layout is at </div>
                                    <div><a href="https://www.dprg.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/DPRG-Roborama-2011b-Challenge-Level-LF-Course.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.dprg.org/wp-conten<wbr>t/uploads/2017/11/DPRG-Roboram<wbr>a-2011b-Challenge-Level-LF-Cou<wbr>rse.pdf </a> 
                                      If you have any additional
                                      questions, let me know. I would
                                      love to see your work on the tests
                                      that you are developing.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Regards,</div>
                                    <div>Doug P.</div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                                    <div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec
                                      9, 2017 at 12:36 AM, John Swindle
                                      <span dir="ltr"><<a class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_8354197153887660578moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank">swindle@compuserve.com</a>></span>
                                      wrote:<br>
                                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial, Helvetica,
                                          sans-serif" size="2" color="black">Doug,
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>I'd say the crossing in
                                            your drawing was about
                                            either 30 degrees or 150
                                            degrees, and since it could
                                            come in on either side, I'd
                                            have to look for both. I am
                                            not asking that the rules
                                            state which side the angle
                                            is measured from. My issue
                                            is that I am developing a
                                            two-step test that covers
                                            all the conditions in the
                                            Challenge, but in the steps
                                            I need to include something
                                            that rejects the
                                            intersections. I am OK with
                                            rejecting any line that is
                                            70 degrees to 110 degrees on
                                            either side. If the
                                            intersecting line is
                                            straight, the test is a bit
                                            more robust. If each side is
                                            70 to 110 degrees (a bent
                                            intersecting line), my
                                            two-step test might fail.</div>
                                          <div><br>
                                          </div>
                                          <div>Doing it "that's just
                                            wrong" way,</div>
                                          <div>John Swindle</div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671h5">
                                              <div><br>
                                                <br>
                                                <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original


                                                  Message-----<br>
                                                  From: Doug Paradis
                                                  <<a class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paradug@gmail.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_8354197153887660578moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paradug@gmail.com" target="_blank">paradug@gmail.com</a>><br>
                                                  To: John Swindle <<a class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_8354197153887660578moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank">swindle@compuserve.com</a>><br>
                                                  Cc: DPRG <<a class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dprglist@lists.dprg.org" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_8354197153887660578moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dprglist@lists.dprg.org" target="_blank">dprglist@lists.dprg.org</a>><br>
                                                  Sent: Fri, Dec 8, 2017
                                                  11:52 pm<br>
                                                  Subject: Re: LF
                                                  intersection angle
                                                  rule<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  <div id="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486AOLMsgPart_2_81c7d011-0908-4c74-95cc-d249b881afbf">
                                                    <div class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486aolReplacedBody">
                                                      <div dir="ltr">John,

                                                        <div>    In the
                                                          challenge
                                                          course, all
                                                          the
                                                          intersections
                                                          are 90
                                                          degrees. The
                                                          rule was
                                                          written to
                                                          allow crossing
                                                          variations in
                                                          the future.
                                                          I'm thinking
                                                          that  70-90
                                                          degrees would
                                                          represent the
                                                          smallest angle
                                                          of the
                                                          intersection.
                                                          I not sure
                                                          that is right,
                                                          just the way I
                                                          would
                                                          interpret the
                                                          angle.  </div>
                                                        <div>if you saw
                                                          an
                                                          intersection
                                                          that was like
                                                          this:</div>
                                                        <div>         
                                                           |   /</div>
                                                        <div>         
                                                           | /</div>
                                                        <div>         
                                                           /</div>
                                                        <div>         /
                                                          |</div>
                                                        <div>        / 
                                                          |</div>
                                                        <div>       / 
                                                           |</div>
                                                        <div><br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>What angle
                                                          would you say
                                                          the
                                                          intersection
                                                          was? </div>
                                                        <div><br>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <div>Regards,</div>
                                                        <div>Doug P.</div>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <div class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486aolmail_gmail_extra"><br>
                                                        <div class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486aolmail_gmail_quote">On


                                                          Fri, Dec 8,
                                                          2017 at 9:03
                                                          PM, John
                                                          Swindle <span dir="ltr"><<a class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank"></a><a class="m_8354197153887660578moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:swindle@compuserve.com" target="_blank">swindle@compuserve.com</a>></span>
                                                          wrote:<br>
                                                          <blockquote class="m_8354197153887660578m_-1585671555693740696m_-5699930273498463671m_-2867064402782409486aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><font face="Arial,
                                                          Helvetica,
                                                          sans-serif" size="2" color="black">
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>Doug,</div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div>The Line
                                                          Following
                                                          Challenge
                                                          rules say
                                                          "Intersections
                                                          may cross with
                                                          angles of 70 -
                                                          90 degrees."
                                                          Doesn't that
                                                          really mean 70
                                                          to 110
                                                          degrees? Is
                                                          the
                                                          intersecting
                                                          line straight,
                                                          or can it bend
                                                          at the
                                                          intersection?</div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div>Thanks,</div>
                                                          <div>John
                                                          Swindle</div>
                                                          <div> </div>
                                                          <div style="color:black;font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt"><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </font></blockquote>
                                                        </div>
                                                        <br>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </font></blockquote>
                                    </div>
                                    <br>
                                  </div>
                                  <br>
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                                  <br>
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